Thursday, August 24, 2006
flag burners
serious post time.
check out this link. Helen Irving presents a very good viewpoint on the punishment handed out to a Hurstville teenager that burned an australian flag outside an RSL during the cronulla riots last year. his charge was property offences, not desecration of our nation's flag.
now, this is an issue that has always pricked my interest. if i see anyone burning our flag, i get pretty ticked off at the nerve of that person. my feeling has generally been that if you feel you have the right to burn it in australia (which we actually do in our democratic society) in full view of media, etc., you deserve to be kicked out of the country. don't like our government/rules/foreign policy? the door is there for you.
now, today i realised this is a pretty narrow minded point of view. freedom of speech and all that, any form of punsihment is "constitutionally invalid", to quote Irving.
but what is it about burning our most recognisable national symbol that irks people? are we, as a country, too jingoistic, too swept up in sport-fuelled national pride, too protective of our heritage and ANZAC culture? after all, we slowly grill the emu & roo...
you would never see anyone burning it on Jan 26, or at the Bledisloe, or in Kaiserslautern recently, or on Parliament hill. but there are a lot of issues in the world that we've taken a lot of stick for recently, e.g. the issue of asylum seekers, our involvement in the iraq war (which gets me incredibly angry), the increase in poverty, our dearth of water situation, etc etc.
another thing: if our history can be symbolised in one image, how is desecrating it OK? has our flag lost all meaning? are we too american in our view of it, revering it as a sacred?
i'm starting too think that while some may be offended by it, there shouldn't be an outrage. but, over to you.
# posted by dave traill @ 7:18 PM 
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Interesting, this issue of flag burning actually came up in one of my lectures last week - the subject is censorship and responsibility, and free speech is a big part of that.
The lecturer pointed out that something like burning the flag in Australia isnt as such a big issue as it is in say the USA. I personally think your post is the first i have heard of people here getting particularly offended by it - or at least compared to teh offence it seems to cause in the US. And thats partly due to complacency of Australians in some regard i think.
Anywho, I still think burning a flag is a silly thing to do, but in terms of freedom of expression its ok. It is after all just a flag, just a symbol. Which of course is why the act becomes symbolic too, but my point is a flag is a flag, there is more to the country than that...
hm anyway, rambling now hehe sorry...
The lecturer pointed out that something like burning the flag in Australia isnt as such a big issue as it is in say the USA. I personally think your post is the first i have heard of people here getting particularly offended by it - or at least compared to teh offence it seems to cause in the US. And thats partly due to complacency of Australians in some regard i think.
Anywho, I still think burning a flag is a silly thing to do, but in terms of freedom of expression its ok. It is after all just a flag, just a symbol. Which of course is why the act becomes symbolic too, but my point is a flag is a flag, there is more to the country than that...
hm anyway, rambling now hehe sorry...
mp - i like your way of thinking. i wonder what our view of flag burning would be if we saw another country burning it. kinda like the seinfeld scenario, where they burned the cuban flag in their 2nd last episode.
the laws are currently at the stage where if you say "i hate everything this country stands for" by burning their flag, that's ok here! hmmm, i guess our response could be that if that's your point of view, that's fine, you just forgo any of the rights we enjoy here as well.
chels - i agree, it is just a symbol. but does that mean the symbols have no relevance or meaning? if they have no meaning, there's no offence under which they could be charged apart from destroying public property.
i wonder if burning the boxing kangaroo would cause any offence. probably not!
the laws are currently at the stage where if you say "i hate everything this country stands for" by burning their flag, that's ok here! hmmm, i guess our response could be that if that's your point of view, that's fine, you just forgo any of the rights we enjoy here as well.
chels - i agree, it is just a symbol. but does that mean the symbols have no relevance or meaning? if they have no meaning, there's no offence under which they could be charged apart from destroying public property.
i wonder if burning the boxing kangaroo would cause any offence. probably not!
Hey Trail,
I know you moved on from this one but I want to throw in my 2 cents worth. A flag is a symbol and yes just a symbol (Nod to Chels). Are some symbols important enough to protect?
To me a flag represents all of a country, not just its government, not just its wars, not just its outlook. A flag represents all who have come before and all who will come after. It represents those who have given lives of service, and those who haven’t. It acts as a reminder to the shame and failings of the people as well as their triumphs and ongoing struggles. It represents a nation in its entirety; to me to burn your own flag is to “piss where you sleep”, to burn another’s is to insult the living the dead and the unborn of that nation.
Never forget the potency of a symbol. Symbols are part of the narrative of every day of our lives; they effect every discourse within that narrative. We as Christians especially should never forget this fact. We have in the cross, not just the most awesome event in all time, but it is the most potent symbol of God’s love, justice, mercy and grace imaginable. That symbol is imbued with immense power because of the act it represents.
If we see someone show contempt for those symbols that mean something to us, should we not be incensed? Should we not know anger? Should we act? God allows us to mock the Cross, to mock his Son, but not forever. Should you be allowed to mock the symbol of your own nation, even in protest? I think if you feel that you can attack the symbol of your own people that they, the people it is a symbol of, should be able to call you to account. For it to be other, I feel, is to allow us to view ourselves as separate and distinct, when it is indeed as much a symbol of us as all people the flag symbolizes.
PS The more I wrote the more fired up I got ;)
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I know you moved on from this one but I want to throw in my 2 cents worth. A flag is a symbol and yes just a symbol (Nod to Chels). Are some symbols important enough to protect?
To me a flag represents all of a country, not just its government, not just its wars, not just its outlook. A flag represents all who have come before and all who will come after. It represents those who have given lives of service, and those who haven’t. It acts as a reminder to the shame and failings of the people as well as their triumphs and ongoing struggles. It represents a nation in its entirety; to me to burn your own flag is to “piss where you sleep”, to burn another’s is to insult the living the dead and the unborn of that nation.
Never forget the potency of a symbol. Symbols are part of the narrative of every day of our lives; they effect every discourse within that narrative. We as Christians especially should never forget this fact. We have in the cross, not just the most awesome event in all time, but it is the most potent symbol of God’s love, justice, mercy and grace imaginable. That symbol is imbued with immense power because of the act it represents.
If we see someone show contempt for those symbols that mean something to us, should we not be incensed? Should we not know anger? Should we act? God allows us to mock the Cross, to mock his Son, but not forever. Should you be allowed to mock the symbol of your own nation, even in protest? I think if you feel that you can attack the symbol of your own people that they, the people it is a symbol of, should be able to call you to account. For it to be other, I feel, is to allow us to view ourselves as separate and distinct, when it is indeed as much a symbol of us as all people the flag symbolizes.
PS The more I wrote the more fired up I got ;)
# posted by 
: 5:54 PM
: 5:54 PM << Home
